Berlin CDU MP: “Work or go back to Ukraine – that would be a cold shower”
Lilia Usik wants to get Ukrainian refugees into jobs more quickly. She says that basic information is often lacking and is calling for cuts to be made to language courses.
Lilia Usik is the first native Ukrainian in the Berlin House of Representatives, a prime example of successful integration. Usik came to Berlin in 2011, having studied German in Kiev . Alternatives such as law, economics or international relations were only available to children from wealthier families, she explains. There were state scholarships for German, which was considered the "language of business". At the National Linguistic University in Kiev, there was a floor for each language. "You won't believe how differently the floors ticked after two or three years of study," says Usik, laughing. On the French floor, the students often floated in higher romantic spheres, on the Spanish floor there was a siesta mood every now and then, and the German students were more punctual and orderly.
Around 54,000 Ukrainians currently live in Berlin with a residence permit. Around 9,000 are unemployed, around 17,500 are employed and subject to social insurance contributions. Many of those employed are on benefits. And more than 15,000 Ukrainians are involved in training measures. How do you assess these figures in terms of integration?
For me, that is not satisfactory. Too many people are stuck in language courses. They have managed A1 and A2, which is good. Now they are repeating B1 or B2. This involves complicated language rules and technical terms from technology, industry, chemistry and physics. Many people do not know how to learn all of this and get lost. They should learn the language while working: the accountant, the kindergarten teacher, the doctor. You do not need B2 to start a job.
One objection is that something learned incorrectly sticks with you forever.
Ultimately, native speakers don't necessarily expect someone with a migration background to have a seamless command of grammar, stylistics and everything else at B2 level. They're happy when someone shows interest in the language and culture. There's no problem with articles not being used correctly. Or the pluperfect.
Would you send a doctor with A2 knowledge to your practice?
The idea that only German-speaking patients come to Berlin practices is somewhat outdated. Many patients do not speak German very well. They speak English, Russian, Arabic or Turkish. If no one can accompany them to translate, they have to bring an interpreter, which costs 60 to 75 euros per hour. So, for example, a Ukrainian doctor could help Ukrainian customers in a local practice. She is usually very well trained and has a lot of professional experience. As an assistant, she would learn the technical terms and routines in her everyday work much more quickly. It is the same for IT people and everyone else.
Doctors work in one of the regulated professions , for which one must go through complicated state recognition procedures. IT specialists can be hired in the private sector at any time, even without a language course.
That's true, but there is also room for improvement in the private sector. For example, project managers could be employed for projects in Eastern Europe. And there are many jobs that hardly require any language skills. In trades or in factories, you need a certain level of language, but you work a lot with your hands. Companies know where they can best employ this or that person. But officially, to start a job, you need at least B2.
Recently, the Berliner Zeitung tried to find some tradesmen's jobs in Lichtenberg's large accommodation, the City Hotel East. There wasn't a single interested party. Can you explain that?
As I understood the report , there were unanswered questions in these job offers. This could all have been easily clarified in Ukrainian. But many people don't dare to ask uncomfortable questions. They are afraid of being punished for it.
What kind of uncomfortable questions?
Is this illegal work? How much will I be paid? How will I be insured? Will I no longer receive benefits or can I top up my income? Very few people understand this.
Working a little and supplementing your wages with benefits can be quite convenient.
Not needing social benefits is certainly the goal of most Ukrainians. But many do not know whether the money will be enough if they work full-time. They hardly understand the system and have not yet filed a tax return here. If they work independently, they hope to be able to keep all the money, but have already heard the opposite. This creates uncertainty.
This could easily be dispelled with some basic information.
Exactly. It just takes someone to say: Hey, you're going to do this independent job and then you have to give up 40 percent, you're going to do it this way and that way. It might not be a bad idea to have mobile Ukrainian-speaking teams. They could talk to people in the accommodation and build trust.
This hasn't been tried yet?
I have not heard of it. People need the security that they will not say something wrong and be thrown out of the aid system. If they still have property in Ukraine or were given indefinite leave from their previous job there, this is associated with the fear of losing all benefits. Such fears are also being stoked in the community.
Someone is needed to set the legal framework: your house in Ukraine is irrelevant as long as Germany cannot realistically check whether it is still standing. These are your rights here, these are your responsibilities. Now you can open up and tell us. This remains confidential and the goal is for you to enter the job market. This way you can obtain citizenship, currently even without giving up your Ukrainian citizenship. That should be incentive enough to forego social benefits.
Even if they are opulent compared to those in Ukraine?
In Ukraine, financial support for those in need is significantly lower. Those who are unemployed receive benefits, but live in real poverty. That is one reason why almost everyone there works. But we must not forget: this is a performance-oriented society. Ukrainians are performance-oriented from an early age. Many study and do several training courses. Performance is seen as something good and is highly rewarded. That is why I do not like the fact that we are making these people doubt their abilities by leaving them in the social system for years because of the lengthy qualification recognition process and not integrating them into the job market.
Are they doing too well with the citizen's income?
They have to take the whole thing. There is child benefit. Just like for German families. Your apartment is paid for. The state covers your insurance. If the 500 to 600 euros for living expenses are tight, you can go to the food bank. It is not a life of luxury, but you can get by. If you are clever, you can get a lot of things for free through various associations. If you find an apartment, you can apply to the job center for reimbursement for furniture. So, there are already a lot of benefits. If you want to abuse them, there are plenty of opportunities. We should give the benefits so that the person can settle in. But then we should make sure that they get into the job market as quickly as possible.
It can be comfortable with citizen's income if you earn a little extra money under the table . How common is this among Ukrainians in Berlin? Some people go in this direction. Especially men. They see themselves forced to support their families and will take any job. Sometimes in logistics. Or in the construction industry. But I also hear of women who are desperately trying to earn a little extra money. As babysitters, cleaners or tutors. Or they want to look after dogs. None of this brings in much money.
And time and again, people are not paid at all for their work - especially in the construction industry and logistics. But people are familiar with these working conditions from Ukraine. Not everything is regulated there as we know it in Germany. Some people get their salary in an envelope - if they get it at all. It's a black market that we don't need.
Illegal work is widespread in Ukraine?
In Ukraine, it is not guaranteed that you will be able to pay your entire living expenses with a permanent job. There are relatively few jobs that allow this to happen. Many teachers, for example, look after students after class to earn extra money. Such second and third jobs are widespread. This is not morally reprehensible, but rather part of everyday life.
And this additional income is not taxed?
Such income is not declared. At least, that was the case when I left Ukraine in 2011. There were attempts to regulate it. The plan was for people to register as self-employed and offer their services. But the whole thing was in its infancy at the time and didn't get very far.
Becoming self-employed is quite complicated, even in this country.
Exactly. The job center can often hardly help. The employees do not have the capacity to answer all questions. And in Ukrainian too! Recently I came across an organization in Ukrainian media that also advises people in Berlin who want to start a business: Laru Helps Ukraine. There needs to be more of these offers and they also need fixed funding because the people from Laru Helps Ukraine, for example, are currently working on a voluntary basis.
But the simple information that in this country one job is usually enough could also help.
Exactly. There is no strong middle class in Ukraine. There are very few extremely rich people, and the gap between them and the others is very large. In Germany, the middle class is shrinking, but at a relatively high level. This must be communicated to Ukrainians: we are not ultra-rich, but we can afford an apartment, maybe a car, and the occasional holiday from full-time jobs - this is not a given, it must be explained.
And what if someone knows all of this in general – and decides to live a fairly comfortable life with social benefits and illegal work?
If illegal work is discovered, it is a criminal offence. After that, you can no longer be naturalised. This information could have a deterrent effect. But I would advocate educational measures. As I said, there are already enough fears.
How many of the 54,000 refugees are estimated to want to stay in Berlin?
I would say the vast majority. Of those who always had their bags packed, most have already returned. After two years, the roots begin to take hold. The children have made their first friends in daycare or school. They are making progress with the language, although often painfully slowly. You are settling in.
Will the Ukrainians end up staying among themselves?
Not necessarily, the key to real integration is the path that the children take. As a rule, parents want their children to be successful. They are sent to all kinds of courses and are expected to learn German as quickly as possible. This opens up many opportunities. In the end, Ukrainians are very peaceful and quite adaptable. They are unlikely to build any parallel societies here. The fear of criminal tendencies is also unfounded.
We've talked a lot about pull factors that could get Ukrainians into jobs. What would be a push factor?
A very painful push would be to cut social benefits: there would be no more money, everyone would either have to work or go back to Ukraine. That would be tough, but it would force everyone to take a job. Then people would stop thinking about it. That would be a cold shower and difficult in many ways, including legally and morally. I advocate pull factors.
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